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 Osama bin Laden is dead

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meetme7
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PostSubject: Osama bin Laden is dead   Mon May 02, 2011 4:37 am

As commander in chief.. President Obama finds himself in the same position as former Pres. Bush...“smoke him out”...and Obama did what Bush could not do .... kill bin Laden. But at this point one must wonder if the president is not constrained by his own rhetoric...as for instance in Libya. He could kill Qaddafi “Godfather style” all the while speaking in terms of UN Security Council sanctions.. but it would still be illegal to kill Qaddafi..one must be a neutral referee in a civil war.

While Americans celebrate a major victory in one battle against evil... they should recognise that the larger war against terrorism continues. Al Qaeda affiliates in Yemen, Africa and Asia remain dedicated to killing Americans and their allies. We all know that even as they mourn the loss of their inspirational leader.. they will not waiver in their determination to attack us and our way of life.


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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Mon May 02, 2011 8:53 am

White House : In August 2010, "we found their home in Abbottabad," not in a cave, not right along the Afghanistan border, but in an affluent suburb less than 40 miles from the capital

White House: Pakistan officials were unaware of the operation and scrambled fighter jets after getting reports of the explosion. But the U.S. helicopters were able to leave without further incident, the official said.


Shame on Pakistan
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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Mon May 02, 2011 7:38 pm

And President Obama says, 'Justice has been done.'

I note that our Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard talked to the media afterwards and used the exact same words: 'Justice has been done.'

America is the leader of the Free World, the bastion of democracy, etc. etc. But now it can order the assassination of an *alleged* criminal on foreign soil, without giving the victim a fair trial, and still claim that 'justice has been done' ? A summary execution is now 'justice' ?

Consider: What if the US State Department decided that Julian Assange, the founder of Wikileaks, was an intolerable threat to US security and global stability, and decided to order a Special Forces team to covertly land in England and take out Assange, without informing Westminster. There are differences between the two scenarios, but they are a matter of degree: there are basic similarities too.

If the US did this to Assange, what would the reaction be? Total support from US allies? I doubt it. More like outrage and condemnation. Who would deny that whatever Assange may or may not have done, he is entitled nevertheless to his day in court.

So why exactly was Bin Laden different? Why is such a blatant breach of international law described as "Justice" ?

And if our Australian Prime Minister is apparently going "all the way with Obama hey!", does this mean that here in Australia we may also look forward to a future where someone may be charged with a serious crime and be summarily sentenced without right to a trial?

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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Mon May 02, 2011 8:25 pm

I don't know why bin laden is different. All I know is that the violent death of this human being is being met with rejoicing and celebration. Unreal.
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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Tue May 03, 2011 11:05 am

I don't often say this...but excellent point Nashi!!



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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Tue May 03, 2011 11:37 am

well i cant miss such a topic heh :
Well me personally ever believed this man existed : )I think he was invented just to be over there some "ennemie " .So i dont pay much attention now to this new for me is just fun to watch all medias .The biggest terorist with the biggest teroristic group ???wait a min ...wasnt Al Qaida created in 80 exactly from USA to figth with the russian army then ?if you go look in books you will see theye were called patriotes now terrorist .SO i just enjoy now how people ,the big people lol says We killed Osama ....when for me now is just so overplaying that is almost fun .But hey soon i give 1 year there will be new "big terrorist " ..time will show as old people says ...: ))
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PostSubject: Osama bin Laden is dead    Tue May 03, 2011 1:58 pm

I am not going to judge the celebrations that went down. I understand why people were both elated and morose.

Nor will I try to tell you that America shouldn’t have “buried” bin Laden at sea... though I do find it fishy (pardon the pun) that his body was disposed of so quickly and so thoroughly.

A few things just don't add up to me.. such as:

(1) The people giving the briefing were only listed as “Senior Administration Officials.” (Why can’t we know who was giving the briefing? Was it President Obama.. Secretary Clinton.. who?).

(2) During that briefing,..those officials said a U.S. military helicopter was destroyed after a mechanical failure. Then they said it wasn’t when a member of the media questioned them about it minutes later.. during the same briefing.

(3) Then we’ve got the American government saying that no other government wanted bin Laden’s body... so they spent an hour dumping his body into the sea. Though.. not surprisingly.. not everyone agrees that bin Laden was buried in an appropriate manner.

(4) The U.S. Government has not always respected the 24 hour rule. Officials held the bodies of Saddam Hussein’s sons.. Uday and Qusay.. for eleven days after they were killed in a U.S. raid in 2003.

(5) As far as who shot bin Laden in the head, killing him … at first.. the government said it was a “U.S. military asset” and that America was the only government involved.

(6) Then CNN said Pakistan was involved.

(7) There’s also been some weirdness relating to how bin Laden’s body was identified. It has been reported that his wife helped to identify the body … but she also died when she was used as a human shield. (Of course.. he had more than one wife)

You see … this is how conspiracy theories get started.. lots of little discrepancies and plot twists for people to pick on for ages.. I’m sure there are more than what I’ve pointed out here. So.. don’t be surprised if there are Osama bin Laden sightings in years to come.



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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Thu May 05, 2011 4:27 pm

maggie4818mag wrote:
well i cant miss such a topic heh :
Well me personally ever believed this man existed : )I think he was invented just to be over there some "ennemie " .So i dont pay much attention now to this new for me is just fun to watch all medias .The biggest terorist with the biggest teroristic group ???wait a min ...wasnt Al Qaida created in 80 exactly from USA to figth with the russian army then ?if you go look in books you will see theye were called patriotes now terrorist .SO i just enjoy now how people ,the big people lol says We killed Osama ....when for me now is just so overplaying that is almost fun .But hey soon i give 1 year there will be new "big terrorist " ..time will show as old people says ...: ))

Wow.. Whole new level of ignorance! Nice job Dear! Wink

You've confused al Qaeda with the Taliban... But, easy enough to do.. all are nothing but dirty arabs. Discussion about the Taliban is an entirely different topic though.

I especially like how you close your post with how there will be a new "big terrorist". Well duh! When did anyone suggest that it would end with bin Laden?

I was fairly certain I would find a bunch of rhetoric on this site about this.. Glad to see I was not disappointed.

Brenda.. Brenda.. Brenda.. I enjoyed your last post as well. It never ceases to amaze me how people (loosely used term) have not figured out that you NEVER pay any attention to initial news stories or accounts on anything. Every discrepency you listed can be accounted for by 2 things...
The first being the Obama administration is so desperate to raise opinion polls that they wanted complete control over the initial reporting. Ok fine, where they failed is that they didn't have anyone with any clue about military operations on hand to ask the right questions prior to releasing statements to the media. Example: Obama's monkey reads "Encountered hostiles firefight ensued" and "multiple enemy casualites" and "operation took 40 minutes" and gathered.. "US forces were met by mulitple hostile targets and a 40 minute firefight ensued". Hilarious! Common sense tells us that a small band of cave dwellers aren't going to hold off a group of 20 or more US (or even british) special forces for 40 minutes.. get real. So, what I am getting at here we as "news" consumers are pretty much just as guilty. We demand instant information, any information, factual or not. Some day we will learn to wait for information and stop paying attention to the initial reports. Then possiblly our leaders and news organization might start saying something like "here is what we know for now, more information will be made available shortly" Wait for the reports to come in from the people who were actually on the ground people!
The second thing is that the world wide (not just US) media couldn't wait either.. Every "news" organization has to be first. So no one bothered to question accuracy and just reported supposistion, typical. Then of course they all have to add their own commentary and more speculation to the point that any fact is so distorted it is no longer recognizable. Btw.. the first report came from some Paki on Twitter.

By all means though.. Please continue inventing and fostering conspiracy theories.. They are great laughs. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Thu May 05, 2011 6:41 pm

Wow Maggie. Even for you that is like a whole new descent into incoherency and inane rambling. Did you actually state that bin laden was a myth? Thats like the whackiest conspiracy theory I have ever heard of, and you aren't even British!
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PostSubject: Osama bin Laden is dead    Fri May 06, 2011 12:24 am

Simon...Simon...Simon... I did not expect this to be a popular topic with you. Your response did not disappoint either.

I did not say that bin Laden should be alive... or that he was misunderstood... only that using virtue of justice to describe his killing is a pretty anemic understanding of justice.

Is it right to "celebrate" the death of any human being? No wait.. that didn't happen

Quote :
It never ceases to amaze me how people (loosely used term) have not figured out that you NEVER pay any attention to initial news stories or accounts on anything.

As the Vatican statement puts it: "In the face of a man's death, a Christian never rejoices, but reflects on the serious responsibilities of each person before God and before men, and hopes and works so that every event may be the occasion for the further growth of peace and not of hatred."

There is no way around it... The American way of life is petroleum-based.. and they have used their power to control those parts of the world that have it. To keep control.. they have empowered dictators... and a great deal of that petroleum happens to be underneath the holiest ground of the world's second largest religion.

Deny it if you want... Americans must take responsibility for their role in the world's violence if they are ever to approach anything like a vision of justice... which means a world in which every human life has a chance to flourish.

"Justice has been done," said President Obama...announcing the assassination of Osama bin Laden... a couple of his aides.. and a woman used as a human shield in the attack. Is that what "justice" is? No wait... that wasn't the case..

Quote :
It never ceases to amaze me how people (loosely used term) have not figured out that you NEVER pay any attention to initial news stories or accounts on anything.

I say that not because I don't think Osama bin Laden should have escaped punishment for his crimes. The man was guilty of murder thousands of times over. But I wonder if the president of the United States.. a nation that has committed terrible and grotesque acts of grave injustice in these past 10 years.. should be so bold in invoking "justice." I wish in some way the president had called the action exactly what it was.. revenge for the attacks of 9/11. No need to paper it over..in fact.. I think many Americans would be completely willing to acknowledge it.

I do not know what "justice" in the war on terror looks like anymore. As a nation America have strayed far from anything one might call a "just" response to the attacks of 9/11. Indeed.. if there is a devil.. I think he must rejoice that the evil unleashed on 9/11 has borne such fruit.. the destruction of two countries.. the full blossoming of government-sanctioned torture and new seeds of distrust and even hatred among members of the world's two largest religions.

I can only say that I am uncomfortable with the celebration that is accompanying this death... and with the way bin Laden's body was dumped into the sea. No wait.. this is not correct either

Quote :
It never ceases to amaze me how people (loosely used term) have not figured out that you NEVER pay any attention to initial news stories or accounts on anything.

Even if he deserved it.. we are all responsible for the world that produced him.. and true justice demands that we admit it.


Last edited by meetme7 on Fri May 06, 2011 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Fri May 06, 2011 11:47 am

Let me speak for the majority of Americans. There was no celebrating. What you saw on Fox news was but a few small groups of people waving American flags and getting drunk over his death. Most Americans saw the news, thought in their heads 'good riddance' and went on with their day. America is dealing with a few natural disasters now, and as sweet as it was for Obama to announce bin laden had been taken out of the picture, fact is, things returned to whats happening here quickly.

Most Americans hope to never feel that happy about the death of anyone ever again.
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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Sat May 07, 2011 3:49 am

As usual things start to get silly! But...Nashi made a good point, which I feel would be appropriate to take a little further.

In Bin laden's case, he was executed with extreme prejudice without trial - Justice was done! Allow me to put Bin Laden into some kind of context with a bunch of other mass murdering bastards:

1. Yugoslav President Slobodan Milošević - was eventually brought to trial, but died innocent of charges --- huh??? His crimes were as obvious as Bin laden's.
2. Bosnian Serb President Radovan Karadžić - arrested, extradited, brought to trial --- still alive! This guy was responsible for genocide at a level Bin Laden could only dream about.
3. Augusto Pinochet - the grandaddy of all mass murderers - lived to a ripe old age and managed to evade any justice.

These are just three of a multitude of terrormongers who seem to get a chance for trial even though the case against them is probably more secure than the case against Bin Laden. Interesting isn't it? What makes Bin Laden such an unique mass murderer that he doesn't even deserve a trial? It can't be body count - the others beat his score by miles. So what is so different about Bin laden that his summary execution is condoned by major world leaders and launches celebrations in the streets of America akin to the fourth of July?

In the book '1984' by George Orwell, O'Brien tells Winston Smith that 2+2=5 --- if he says it does. Accept it or crash and burn!
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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Sat May 07, 2011 11:04 am

lol Simon and hearts !!
Congrats you never will suprise me at any topic ....so predictable : )
OK will say it short ,simple and direct :For me ,,,,its a myth almost like to believe that heartss has some knowedge for the World behind the state she lives or Simon who thinks that he is "clean "and all other are dirty : )
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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Sat May 07, 2011 11:54 am

You are right Space.. Those that you mentioned should have been killed as well. It is a shame that they weren't. Isn't it great that finally a couple have been? Very Happy
I see Nashi's point.. except his comparison was sort of ridiculous. Comparing Assange and bin Laden? Nice example of Apples and Oranges. I do like the examples you have given though...I think it is great that lessons are being learned from mistakes in the past.. and now we just kill these fuck bags. It should happen every time.

Brenda... now I am sure you are going to laugh at this and think "such a typical American response" and that is fine. I am trying to understand your statement of how the United States or its people are somehow responsible for the actions of al Qaeda simply because we use oil? Are you serious? Here is an example of the image your position conjures up: Say I shop at WalMart (or insert any other retail store).. The money I spend there disproportionately goes to shareholders and executives of the company, and not the workers.. Yeah, it sucks, but that isn't my doing. So while the guy that gathers carts in the parking lot might hate his life, and hate that he sees the CEO of WalMart making millions while he makes peanuts.. He has the right to come to my house and shoot me in the head? Beause somehow according to you I am partly to blame for his unhappiness! Yeah, you are going to have to explain that one to me again.

Maggie Dear.. Yes, I know you justify all sorts of ignorance with "it is what I believe". It's fine, I actually enjoy the humor in it, and I get the feeling you don't really take yourself all that seriously either.

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PostSubject: Osama bin Laden is dead    Sat May 07, 2011 2:46 pm

Simon..forgive me... perhaps I am on the wrong track..but isn’t this really about bin Laden at this time?

Thanks for the critique and for the appropriate cautions and concerns re: this line of thinking

So in response to your views...who knows we may both be right or wrong in the end.

We need to recall, again... where bin Ladenism came from. It emerged from a devil's bargain between oil-consuming countries and Arab dictators. We all ... Europe.. America.. India.. China .. treated the Arab world as a collection of big gas stations.. and all of us sent the same basic message to the petro-dictators.. Keep the oil flowing.. the prices low and don't bother Israel too much and you can treat your people however you like.. outback.. where we won't look. Bin Laden and his followers were a product of all the pathologies that were allowed to grow in the dark outback .. crippling deficits of freedom.. women's empowerment and education across the Arab world.

Why.. then.. should the United States devote billions of dollars fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan if doing so has little effect on al-Qaeda's ability to launch terrorism? The answer says more about the way Americans think than it does about how terrorists operate. The United States has expended great effort to eradicate al-Qaeda's bases and training camps less because they were important than because they are effective at it. There is an old saying that.. “when all you have is a hammer... every problem looks like a nail.” America has an amazing hammer...its military...which is very good at seizing and controlling territory. So.. they reasoned.. eradicating bases and training camps will cripple al-Qaeda. Yet there is no evidence to validate this idea.


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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Sun May 08, 2011 9:50 am

Al qaida declared war on America. In war, killing the commanders is fair game.

Lets consider not today, but 150 years ago, when Booth assassinated Lincoln. If he had done it just a few days earlier, he would have been acting against the enemy in a legitimate attempt to take out the commander of the union forces. Instead, he kills him after the war is over. Just not done! Now he is just another thug with no support from the South.

Comparing bin laden to some common criminal like assange is different and is treated differently.


On a side note: Excellent work by the US in publicly humiliating bin laden and showing him as a manipulator and phony by posting his home videos. That proved his death like nothing else could have.
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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Sun May 08, 2011 12:16 pm

Simon dearest ,
This is funny "Maggie Dear.. Yes, I know you justify all sorts of ignorance with "it is what I believe"
I blieve that IF you always start wars and kill people everywhere cause some f purpose ,you have to know that there weill be reaction back .Being ignorant is to justify al what USA and Europe did over there ,yogoslavia and etc .And yeah SIMON i get myself very serious on such a things .I can joke and etc for my taste of music ,my kind f talking And everthing else but .not when is about killing people .
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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Sun May 08, 2011 12:25 pm

Hmmm...first, most of the villains I suggested are actually referred to as war criminals - their crimes were against humanity during war and contravened regulations set by the United Nations - of which the USA is an active member.

Secondly, I was under the impression that the 'War on Terror' ended with G.W. Bush - since President Obama has never used this phrase or even the associated rhetoric. The Overseas Contingency Operation, as the Obama administration like to call their battles abroad, was a rebranding of the Bush phrase 'War on Terror' purely to avoid the confusion with wartime regulations (e.g. the justification of human rights abuses in Guantanomo Bay etc). Please note the deliberate ommission of the word 'War'.

What I'm saying Heartsss...is that unbeknownst to you, it seems your country 'technically' is no longer at war with terror - and hasn't been since the election of your latest president.
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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Sun May 08, 2011 1:09 pm

Space, please reread my post.

I said Al qaida declared war on America.

America is simply defending itself and treating al qaida as enemies of the USA. In that regards, they can deal with them as they wish. I don't see why any al qaida member deserves a hearing, trial and or imprisonment. If you are al qaida, you are an enemy of America.

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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Sun May 08, 2011 1:44 pm

I don't know why you keep asking me to re-read your posts - like there is some esoteric message hidden in the words that I haven't quite worked out.

I understood you perfectly:

'Al qaida declared war on America. In war, killing the commanders is fair game.'

That suggested that since Al Qaida had declared war on America...America responded equally. In other words...America went to war with Al Qaida (terror) and killing the commanders of your enemy troops during wartime is justifiable.

Therefore...to reiterate my point....America is no longer at war with 'Terror' in accordance with your current administration - therefore the rules of engagement do not apply. The summary execution of a 'commander' in hiding is not justified.

Heartsss....why don't you just say what you mean? You think America is justified in killing whoever it chooses whenever it wants. It can break all the rules and regulations set by any collective authority...it can even create its own rules and break them. Why can it do this? The simple response is...because nobody stops you.

That's what you think Heartsss...and that is what the majority of your fellow Americans think. Don't beat around the bush....just say it.



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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Sun May 08, 2011 6:45 pm

Fine Space. I'll come out and say it: Yes, its true. The majority of Americans think we were right in killing bin laden, including myself. I realize you believe he should have been captured alive, secured in some sort of prison where he was treated with respect and kindness by his captors then given a fair trial judged by his peers, where he would be able to present his case. Fine.

America pretty much flat out states it, as Obama said after we got bin laden : no matter where you hide or how long you hide, we will get you. It may not be tomorrow, it may not be next year, but we will get you.
If you ask me thats fair warning. You declare war against Americans and you are toast. You threaten the American people and you have signed your own death warrant. Don't expect anything less than death when we get you.

Go Seals.
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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Mon May 09, 2011 11:07 am

Thank you for being honest! I appreciate it and respect your candour.

This will surprise you...but I actually agree that if you are a mass-murderer you should pay the ultimate price. I am not so keen on treating villains and killers with respect and kindness, but I am keen to put people on trial so that they can be convicted and sentenced for crimes they have committed beyond reasonable doubt.

That is my interpretation of justice - I'm sorry that this view is not shared by the American people.

Trouble with this situation is....with Bin Laden's death, we have lost the chance to hear - FROM HIM - what his role in the 9/11 attack was. As you know, I have deep suspicions about the circumstances that led to the 9/11 attack. I feel that it is a great loss that we will never have the opportunity to hear from the man who is supposedly responsible for the whole thing. Convenient for America....but not for anyone else.
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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Tue May 10, 2011 5:04 am

"Kill them all. God will know His own." -- Attributed to Simon de Montfort
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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Wed May 11, 2011 10:45 am

Space, what were you thinking bin laden might reveal? Has he not already gloatingly claimed responsibility for 911 and other attacks? You think someone like bin laden would confess (with or without torture) to anything that we haven't already discovered in his hovel in pakistan where he lived for over 5 years? Are you saying bin laden should have been brought to trial to prove his innocence? Have you not witnessed already the debacle that ensues when we start protecting al qaida prisoners and giving them a trial? They aren't worth it. No one in America has any sympathy for a member of al qaida. Put them down as soon as they are caught, which is more than they deserve. bin laden was treated with more respect then most americans believe he was warranted. To hell with him and all his followers.
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PostSubject: Re: Osama bin Laden is dead   Wed May 11, 2011 10:50 am

LOl at this heartss :"Has he not already gloatingly claimed responsibility for 911 and other attacks?"
LOL and your invented Osama had something with that .thats hilarious to see that there are still people who believe this attack was created by americans : ))
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