Religion (part 2) - Another section needed I think : )

May I just take this opportunity to thank everyone who has posted on the 'Religion' topic. Your contributions have all been hugely interesting and I particularly like the passion with which you have each contributed to the discussion. It has become heated in parts, but I hope that you will all take it as it is - a simple forum discussion with no personal attacks intended. I have added this additional topic in case there are things left unsaid.

Maggie well done for initiating this topic, and Si welcome to the site : ) I loved your reference to a collective consciousness - this is not entirely a Jungian principle (think about Hindu Mysticism as an example). It is something I have been interested in for many years, so maybe one day we can have a Skype discussion on this - I would like that very much : )

I would like to clarify at this point where I stand. I have a deep and strong faith in God. I do not consider myself a religious man, although I attend church more regularly than many people. A lot of my 'religious' observation has to do with my family and upbringing. I attend church to be with my Mother rather than to be with God. It is one of the few things that we do together, just the two of us (occasionally with other family members too, sadly my father has stopped due to recent illness). Although sometimes it is a real drag to get up after a drunken Saturday night, I value this time greatly - because I value her greatly.

Religion I see as an obstacle to faith. It has become steeped in ceremonial pomposity and it excludes more than it includes. I don't deny its role in shaping our societies and our laws, nor do I deny its role in shaping who I am. Nevertheless, I still see it as a barrier between some people and God. God is NOT an egocentric super-being who is so profoundly insecure that he needs to be told every day (sometimes 5 times a day) that he is great, that he is huge, that he is mighty. What is worse - I hate the way that religion seems to state that this is the only way to be with God - you have to wash like this, kneel like that, face this way, chant this mantra etc. Do it THIS way or you are a heathen or an infidel - you have NO faith. That in my mind is bogus. Because, I know, that deep down almost all people have faith in something (except maybe quilly, dutchee and gamesfang).

In my opinion, there is NO single route to God - God is accessible to all people wherever they may be. To try and exclude people from God is possibly the greatest sin imaginable and yet the foremost religions of this world do it to some degree or another. I disagree with the notion that religion has not been responsible for divisions, social turbulence and war. The main problem, as I have seen it since I was a teenager, is that we as humans are intrinsically a hostile, divisive and destructive species whilst simultaneously having a great capacity for love, compassion and creativity. I believe that religion fuels both the negative and positive characteristics of this paradox that is humankind - however it is us as people that allow this, religion is just an excuse. The evidence for this is there for all to see over at least 2 millennia if not a whole lot more.

I decided long ago that I will observe the ceremonious aspects of my religion (the one I was brought up with) to maintain my peace with my family and friends. However, I question almost every aspect of what I experience. Sometimes I despair when people say they do not believe in God - they almost always cite religious references as a basis for their skepticism e.g. religion creates wars etc. Yes...religion may do all of this...but is God responsible? Christ established a church in his name over 2000 years ago, can he be held responsible for all the atrocities that have been carried out in his name? The same can be asked about Muhammed, Buddah or Bhrama...any religious icon for that matter. I despair that God is held accountable for OUR actions. Perhaps it is time we started to take responsibility for our own actions. In this I agree with Legend - let us stop blaming religion or God for what we do wrong. Let us start blaming ourselves for what we have allowed religion to become.

My faith in God is absolute. My dark days of doubt are over and I can feel his presence in everything I do. I don't need religion to reach him. Now let us put our hands together in prayer : )

Space

Si, I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories as a general rule. I totally disagree that the USA is only into things for self serving interest. That sounds like American hate talk. Yes we put Hussein in power, and it he was a better choice at the time. The power corrupted him and he turned into a aggressive leader no longer out to help his people (remember my fear, protectionism, greed rule). I love how people are so critical of England or the US, yet without these two powers freedom as you know it would not be possible. *cough*France*cough* I would like to know what country you live in - and please tell me what they have done to protect freedom in the world over the past 20 years.

As I told you before, I am not sure when it is ok to go to war or kill. Killing is obviously wrong. Do you invade countries or kill a leader to stop future killing? Do you allow terrorist to kill hostages if you could take them out? That is a slippery slope, no matter what your views are. I am amazed that people are so critical of the US going into Iraq - yet they beg us to invade Darfur. BTW - where are all the other countries in helping Darfur? Please show me their involvement. Like I said, slippery slope and you pose a very critical thought. It is a big can of worms..Is it ok to kill in self defense? Is it ok to kill in war but not in peace time? Where is the line. That is an answer I don't know and would be a good thing for me to research.

You may not know it, but your version of what is right and wrong does come from the Bible. Look at what you believe, look at the laws you follow - then compare them to the ten commandments and Biblical teaching. Please don't kid yourself, you may not be aware of it, but you are following Biblical law. Those were some of the first laws ever accepted universally and they still stand today.

Why do I say Mormons are wrong? Do you know about their preachings? I am thinking you don't. If you do, then it should be crystal clear why I think they are wrong. If not - I will be happy to tell you - but I think you should investigate it yourself. I don't agree that every persons belief system is as valid as another. You think NAMBLA is ok? Seriously, I want an answer to that question. It is clearly a belief system supported by thousands. Do you think it is valid? Not everyone falls into what their parents believe - I can promise you that. It will have a huge influence on you - but again - that is why GOOD churches make you question your own beliefs.

Nobody can ever fully understand the Bible, and those small differences lead to entirely different relgions - but Christians share the same core values. Can you interpret things in the Bible to mean something in your favor? Of course. That isn't what religion is supposed to be about.

Tolerance is important, but education is more important. It boils down to some things are right and wrong (again this comes from BIblical teaching). I am sure that NAMBLA members are wrong, and it sickens me to think about - so I will choose not to tolerate them. I will listen to them and debate them, but I wouldn't let my son play at their house. They aren't a group to be tolerated. The same applies to terrorist that target innocent people. The view of tolerance is always shattered when something strikes at you personally. Look at Simon's post as an example. If your wife was murdered, would you be the one begging for tolerance for the criminal? Would you set them free? What if their belief told them it was the right thing to do? I think your tolerance would succumb to the practical Biblical law we follow now.

BTW - I have learned that Catholics in the UK are even more ritualistic than those in the USA. I do understand how that can be a turn off to people looking into faith. It isn't my cup of tea, but I still don't think they are wrong in their beliefs. It just makes them very different from my religion.

merry christmas

Well i guess i shoulda say one big WOW : )and to end this subject like it started
Ty for all people sharing their views and of course like most know i am totaly disagree .
1) Simon ,your avatar is (not going even use programe to translate ) disgusting !thats so offending and so bad that i have no words to explain ..This kind of jokes with a Prophet like Jesus OFFEND every beliver (no matter crsitian or musilm ) ..not going dicuss your views is enough only to see the avatar : )
2 ) Space ,there is something what totaly shock me in your post :U have big Faith but u arent religious ..sigh ...a person who have faith cant say that : )one person can be religious or not ..everthing in middile is nothing :)U cant say u are beliver but u dont believe that the World comes from Adam and Eve .
3 ) Rach there are many peole who call themself belivers ..some belive in cows ..another belive in sky ..and etc ...thats not a religion is a group of people ..tolerating such a thoughs is simple a sin
4 ) G .eh G ,what i can say about your post ?! the only that between your and my views there is NO big difference : )u are cristian and i am musilm WE both knows whats religion and of course we have a questions about it but we find the answers in our Books .U have a homework ...100 years after Jesus was gone in Rom the Imperators deleted the last sentence in the BIble find out what was this sentence : )Thats the first chaging of the origianl Bible .
5 ) SI ,i am totaly agree with you that America and Uk make everthing for Its interest ..thats IN what i am not agree with Legend we have different views what exactly means terrorist ONLY God can take people lifes !!! God give birth God take it !!!!
6 ) Lilie if u didnt want to cuss ,,trust me i hardly hold myself to start cuss after reading your last post : )Relgion and Science are two things in ONE !!!!! In Religion there is No miracle .there is God power !!!Many things cant be explained with Science and u know that ..then they say Miracle ...but thats God !!! Religion is built in NON correction WOW .... there is nothing more correct then the Religion ...every law every rule in Bible or in Koran is CORRECT .The Relgion doesnt devide people ...Dont forget that cant all people go in Heaven ,Hell needs people too so : ).
Now to clear i did read many times Bible ...is very comon with the Koran and here i have to say something ....every translation to the Bible make it far from the original .Now about Koran if u dont read the Koran in arabic means u know nothing .I cant read it in arabic so my knowedge is very little cause in whatevere language i read it 30 years will be not enough to understand it .One letter changed in arabic the meaning is gone ...isnt like to type "delte "and you english people will know i meant "delete " .Nope One letter wrong means ANOTHER meaning ..
Well i was far from to start explain whats cristianity and Islam but after read all postings well ..You know people will pray for you all and that u find peace one day in your souls : )
AMEN
Maggie

Lillie, copy and pasting from a website does nothing but make me question how much you know about the topic you are dicussing. I will address your plagiarism, even though it clearly comes from an anti-religious site.

Belief in Supernational - Yep No place for supernational beliefs - So you discount all the scientist that believe in intelligent design or some mix of creation and evolution? This view is obviously extreme and biased.

Has godmen - Does that mean Jesus? Pope? Clarify please. Does not accept godmen or anybody unquestioningly A perfect rebuttal to this is - why are so many questions not answered with evolution, yet you hold Darwin's guess as factual? Ah - double standards.

Essense of religion is miracle - No, not really. The essense is your mind. No miracle in science - Yeah, cancer sometimes disappears for no apparent reason without any scientific explanation, but thats normal. I am not talking about when people use radiation or chemo either. People are pronounced dead - come back to life suddenly, but ...well....well, we just say "sometimes that happens".

Based on revelation - Based on writing from several sources and many witnesses Based on Method of Science - Which is EXACTLY my point, science proves itself to be wrong - but this is accepted once the new rule is agreed on. Some method.

Makes predictions that can't be tested - Until you get real hot Makes testable predictions - that aren't 100%, and are disproven later due to the fact that our best knowledge at the time still wasn't mature enough, ah but we never mention that in science

Religion is quite static - epic fail statement Science is very dynamic - LOL, maybe to nerds.

No built-in correction - Again, wow, how wrong Built-in correction present - Sometimes after it is too late

Questioning isn't permissilbe - LOL! This poor sap never went to church obviously. Yet he speaks as if this is the truth. Sound oddly familiar. Questioning is one's fundamental right - Ah, but does science quetsion enough? I will get to that later.

Godmen have answer for everything - I never heard someone use "godmen" - but I am going to assume this means pastors and priests. If my assumption is correct, this author is clueless about church. Scientist don't have any hesitation to admit they don't know - but they will throw theory after theory at you. Test this by asking a scientist who believes in evolution if it can be proven.

Divides the people - Again, how wrong can this person be? Sure it creates some division, but much like democracy, people agree on the overall result Unites the people - Show me where scientist unite the world - seems with things like cloning and stem cell research they create more division sometimes

Inspired by emotion - and an open mind, open heart and a willingness to think beyond science Guided by logic - with blinders on at times and ignoring certain facts when they don't fit a theory


Lillie, first let me say I am incredibly disappointed in your post. If you can't find a point in my post then your degree is a complete joke to me. Amazing that your comprehension could be that low. Either you are being passive aggressive or lazy - either way it isn't impressive. I never said a rejected theory doesn't matter. I understand logic quite well. I listened to your thoughts on higher education before, and then showed you how horribly wrong you were when you argued that US colleges weren't the best in the world. See, that is the kind of person I am, I listened to you when I knew you were wrong with an open mind. Then I showed you the facts from non-biased sources.

I notice that you say fact is used when a hypothesis has overwhelming evidence. Ah, the ironic part of science. I would call it an educated guess. Do you really consider that statement? So that would allow me to say space is mexican - clearly based on his picture that cannot be disputed. I also find it funny that you would choose the example of gravity. When you refer to gravity do you think of a simple apple falling on your head - or the complex force that we fight on a daily basis? On what level can you grasp gravity and what knowledge do you have on it? Do you think gravity is a given, a standard? Apparently you haven't researched this very much. Gravity is filled with theories that we base our physics on. It is widely documented that this is only theory in many cases and not fact. I looked up the Harvard site for INTERNATIONAL theories on gravity and you will see for yourself.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2006PhLB..633..164S or http://www.earthsci.unimelb.edu.au/ES304/MODULES/GRAV/NOTES/gtypesum.html

I haven't seen anyone twist your words. I think it is funny that religious people talking to you bothers you so much. I don't agree with many of their tactics, but why in the world would you let it bother you so much? When some internet loser tries to insult me when I know my life is better than his - I just chuckle. You let a Christian get to you? Wow, I can't imagine if you found someone really bad was after you. Would you get mad if someone didn't speak to you because you disagreed over a lesson or test? Ohhhh - they said they will pray for me - the pain! LOL I see that you think it is that they don't accept you, but I think it is more that maybe you don't accept yourself. You have no grasp of religion, a very obvious and glaring point in your reply. Maybe, like Simon, this leads you to lash out at people that are trying to help. I promise, they won't harm you. (* applies only to Christians) Don't be afraid to talk to them even if you disagree.

I don't consider your thought process flawed - I consider it uneducated. You blame religion for wars - but not science for bombs. You think religous people are zealous, but yet you act in the exact same way. Lots of bad things have been done in the name of the church, but lots of bad things were done in the name of Nazi Germany too - but I don't hold EVERY friggin German responsible for that. There are lots of great Germans ( I just dont know any that can play cards). The very fact that you concluded my thinking is rigid just shows how immature you are on an analytical level. What facts do you base that on? PLEASE show me. I love how you and Simon resort to name calling when the rest of us consider this a discussion. There is a reason space and I have fought over 9/11 or political things and it never bothered us - we didn't take it personally. I honestly laughed out loud when I read that you think you look outside the box. Come on - even you know how opinionated and close minded you can be about things. You read my posts and want to cuss, I read yours and have a laugh - there is a big difference. Have I studied the Koran? Some in college, some after. Have I read the book of Mormon? Heh, I take it from every Marriott hotel I stay in (btw, owned by mormons if you didn't know) and I have read it several times. I also had to study it in school and college. Lillie, if you search for knowledge, then it isn't flawed thinking. I recommended you go to a Bible class to educate yourself so that you don't continue to make a fool out of yourself in discussions like these. If that is "forcing" you, then well - I guess you will remain uneducated. I haven't read the other books that didn't make it into the bible. From what I remember they didn't have life changing matter in them, but it has been a long time and I will investigate them again. I DO know there is lots of conspiracy theories out there - Loch Ness, 9-11 Goverment Job, UFO anal probe, no man on the moon....and of course books that should be in the Bible. There had to be a stopping point for the Bible - and that would cause controversy. What exactly got censored that got you all excited? Funny how you bring it up, but I haven't heard a Jew or Catholic complain. I am 99.9% sure you are using this as tactic to try to make some point without any knowledge about it. The problem is that you know nothing about the writings as of now or you would have brought forth specifics. My point about being educated and studying Hitler, etc - is thatwe could have stopped it sooner. Of course people can think what they want. The key is to be EDUCATED as to what is the best mankind. You want to allow NAMBLA to continue?

Let me say that I don't discount science, I think it has allowed us to do many wonderful things. It brought us heart transplants, trips to outerspace and computers. Just don't forget it also brought us missles and nuclear weapons too. Christianity isn't there for you to like or to make you feel warm and fuzzy. If you ever understand the Bible, then you wil look back on this and be embarassed. Guess it is time for you to go cuss more now - maybe you will come back educated though.

merry christmas

.

merry christmas

Sometimes I wonder why the world is the way it is. Then I think to myself, if people here are bold (or stupid) enough to try to debate something in here without knowledge - is this not just a sampling of how people are across the world? I was taught evolution in school, as I assume most students are in english speaking countries. My question is - how many were taught about real biblical study in their school? Little to none I would guess. It is obvious that those with the least religious history have the most to say about it. Simon tries to insult people with his avatar or immature insults - this shows he is obviously unarmed to discuss his personal views. Lillie has little biblical study, yet wants to try to debate by copy and pasting others comments. Comments that group extremist as normal religious people just don't hold up.

I was willing to question my own religion to further this debate - but maybe that wasn't obvious enough. ( I don't know about the death penalty ) People will always choose to see what they want to see.

Love,

Mr Narrow minded

I joined this forum today, and although nobody has posted on this subject for over a month, i want to say some things about religion.

Legend, i've read some incredible statements from your part, and i am fully aware of the fact that brainwashed people like yourself are very difficult to argue with, but i'm going to give it a try anyway.

This is one of your statements: 'If you don't do drugs and have random sexual partners you will NEVER

have to worry about aids'

If you believe that those are the only two ways to get aids you should get more into science...

Also, you keep on babbeling about how the bible is responsible for our morals and our perception of good and wrong no matter if we're christians or not.

I wonder how mankind managed to overcome all those thousands of years before christ allegidly told us how to behave...

Oooh, that's right, you probably don't believe that there was anything before the year 0.

Have your overly-mentioned bible studies taught you that catholic teachings are mostly based on what the solar cult did long before them?

That lots of catholic churches are built on the remains of solar temples (which can be seen in the basements and catacombs of those churches)?

That some of the catholic holidays, like christmas, already existed in the solar cult?

Let's move on to another brilliant quote of yours: 'You think people should be allowed to think how they want - and that gave us Hilter, Hussein, Stalin, etc.'

I think it's very sad when you long for someone to determine the nature of your thoughts...

Is this caused by a lack of personality, fantasy, empathy, intelligence...or is it a side-effect from your bible studies?

Next quote : 'Now here is where you went a bit crazy. "Keep the masses dumb and force them to follow. I'm sure you know about that." LOL, that is funny and if you believe that you shouldn't comment on religion. Clearly you never went to Bible study if you believe that. That is WHY Christians go to church - to learn and to question! Grasp that basic concept first, then you can talk intelligently about religion.'

Are you serious? Lillie is SO right in stating that religion was and is used to keep the masses dumb and to have them follow their religious leader without questions.
For hundreds of years catholic priests prevented 'ordinary people' to get educated and learn how to read and write.
Today they still only give you the information that they want to give you.
Religion has always been used to scare people, if you don't have facts to convince people, just scare the hell out of them (literally )
The main reason for catholics to go to church is not to learn and question, as you state, but to get absolved, because they are often big sinners.
Your convenient system of confession allows you to sin, knowing you wil be forgiven.

The last time i was in church everybody just swallowed what the priest had to say, no questions are asked, ever.
When cornered, a catholic always says that god works in mysterious ways, there is never a real explanation.
Millions of people have been sent to their grave in the name of god, by people who 'communicate with god'.
If one claims to be in contact with aliens he or she ends up in the nuthouse....I see no difference.
Not aknowledging these facts, proves to me that your bible studies have done exactly what they are created to do: dogmatize you...

This quote of yours is also very interesting, with you being a good catholic and all.. : 'When some internet loser tries to insult me when I know my life is better than his - I just chuckle'

Well i have to say, you fit right into the world of the catholic church. Already you feel superior compared to others and think your life is better.
Losers you call them.
Maybe you can change their thoughts, show them the righteous path, give them a good life, like yours.
If you should fail at this, there is always the possibility of extermination, in the name of god, of course....

To round up, i have a few questions for you, Legend :
Are you going to stay a virgin till after you married? (I am assuming you're not married yet, sorry if i'm wrong)
Like a good catholic?
What if, on your wedding night, you find out that your wife has already had a little practice?
Do you ban her? In the name of god?
How far does your belief go?
What if you two are totally not sexual compatible?
A life of misery? all for a god who's existence remains unproven?

Thomas ,
I was reading your post and lets say I am quiet surprised and shocked from all what u said …
I didn’t want to write anymore in this topic ,but your post provoked me reply .
“Are you serious? Lillie is SO right in stating that religion was and is used to keep the masses dumb and to have them follow their religious leader without questions.”
Thomas are u really believe everybody who belives means they don’t have questions ???
So me being musilm make me dumb ,I don’t have questions for my religion , ??Of course I do ,
There are so many questions which people have to ask and to know the answer .
“Religion has always been used to scare people, if you don't have facts to convince people, just scare the hell out of them (literally”
Religion isn’t made to scare people , religion have to make you better person , to make difference between the good and bad : ) because if u don’t believe Its means u can do whatever u want no matter what is it .. Of course people have to know, and that’s NOT to scare .is just that every move what they do ..there is count about that … there is God who watch .
“Are you going to stay a virgin till after you married? (I am assuming you're not married yet, sorry if i'm wrong)” Like a good catholic?
Thomas ,
Dear new member , I will accept this of your question like bad try to show us your sense of humor : )
I am not going even discus your last questions Thomas but me personaly find them for kinda offending .
I hope u will exuse my poor English , and I know your post was about Legend .but you just point out everybody who belives so I decided to reply
Maggie

Hi Maggie,

As you stated yourself, my post was indeed intended for Legend.

But since i offended you (didn't mean to do this) please let me set some things straight...

I stated that religion was and is USED to keep masses dumb and so on... i never said that every believer

is a mindless follower...

Therefore believing in a god does NOT mean your dumb, it means you need this kind of guidance, comforting and reassurance in life.

I DO respect people who choose this way of life, here, the word 'choose' is very important for me.

I said religion is USED to scare people and keep them dumb, not that it is MADE to scare people and keep them dumb. Very big difference, please don't twist my words.

Personally Maggie, i don't need a god to watch if i'm doing the right thing. Every day i try to be a good person, i fully understand

what's right and what's wrong without the thought / fear that i will be punished for bad deeds.

Deciding between good and bad is a matter of conscience for me, a conscience that was given to me by my parents, not by any religion.

Growing up, i had free choice of religion, i have always been thankful for this.

Do you think that every non-believer is a criminal, someone that doesn't know the difference between right and wrong? Interesting thought...

Clearly Legend considers himself superior to others because of his beliefs and studies, that is what really bothered me in his posts.

We are all equal, believers, non-believers, half-believers...

I'm also aware of the fact that sex & religion are very sensitive subjects when put together and very difficult to talk about.

Why is this so difficult Maggie?

Why are many religions and their followers so easily offended when it comes to one of the most basic needs of mankind?

Maybe being offended is a way to avoid these difficult issues?

Both you and Legend state that you have to question everything, this explains my last questions to Legend.

Many muslims live in my country, Maggie, and a muslim that i personally know, who had a European girlfriend for over

4 years suddenly had to break of his relationship with his girl to marry a muslim-girl.

There was no free choice for him...his girlfriend's hart was broken...his too...

Because of this 2 people have an unhappy, forced marriage, their children will feel this unhappyness..all this in the name of islam.

This muslim-girl HAD to be a virgin, while he wasn't anymore for a long time.

This is why i ask : how far can religion and belief go?

Does this mean that god, if he exists, is a very cruel and ruthless being?

Or does it mean that people USE religion for wrong things, like i stated in my first post?

These are subjects that really interest me, i want to know more about the why of these religious rules...

I do not ask these questions to offend people but to know more about religion.

This is an open discussion about religion, therefore i think that every question can and should be asked.

No need to excuse your English, Maggie, it's very understandable.

I would do a lot worse in your language.

Thomas

Hello Thomas ,
Thank you for replying , i am not going discuss your post ,not going even go into that why your friend had to marry a virgin one and etc .Because i dont go into convos about what is Islam ,what people do in the name of the religion and etc
I know about my self , i care about my belives ,so u have the same rigth : )
Maggie

Hi Maggie,

Although i was very curious about your answers, i understand why you don't want to talk about these issues and that's ok.

Free choice above all!

Thomas

I respond to the pathetic...

Legend, i've read some incredible statements from your part, and i am fully aware of the fact that brainwashed people like yourself are very difficult to argue with, but i'm going to give it a try anyway.
This is one of your statements: 'If you don't do drugs and have random sexual partners you will NEVER have to worry about aids' If you believe that those are the only two ways to get aids you should get more into science...
**OK, explain to me how people get aids then. This should be good. Use facts please, because I have never heard of a random case of the virus - ever. Oh wait, is your arguement blood transfusion or baby's mom had aids? Are you using these rare cases to try to say I don't understand science? That would be weak. It also doesn't explain how that mom got aids in the first place. I think everyone knows how the disease is spread - mostly from unprotected sex and sharing needles. I think you look foolish trying to say that my point isn't true. But please - tell me how and why I should worry about getting aids.


Also, you keep on babbeling about how the bible is responsible for our morals and our perception of good and wrong no matter if we're christians or not. I wonder how mankind managed to overcome all those thousands of years before christ allegidly told us how to behave...Oooh, that's right, you probably don't believe that there was anything before the year 0.
Have your overly-mentioned bible studies taught you that catholic teachings are mostly based on what the solar cult did long before them? That lots of catholic churches are built on the remains of solar temples (which can be seen in the basements and catacombs of those churches)? That some of the catholic holidays, like christmas, already existed in the solar cult?
**LOL, spoken like a typical ignorant person on religion! I have to admit that it is SO easy to debate someone without knowledge of a subject - yet, they think their ignorance allows them the right to speak. First of alll I am not Catholic - so that assumption shows how little you know about me. Secondly, I don't know any Christians that believe the world began with the birth of Jesus - so that ia another comment showing your lack of knowledge. Thirdly. you can't make sweeping statements like Catholic teachings are based on solar cults - it isn't true. In fact, every religion owes some rule or ritual to an ancient egyptian, roman or other culture. You logic is so flawed you can't even make an arguement! A Christmas tree has nothing to do with the real reason for Christmas to a believer, but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy it. I am also quite sure someone figured out it was wrong to steal or kill people before Jesus came around. The fact that I have to try to even explain this to you shows that you aren't even to the elementary stage of understanding Christianity. I feel like I am trying to argue with a 1 year old here.


Let's move on to another brilliant quote of yours: 'You think people should be allowed to think how they want - and that gave us Hilter, Hussein, Stalin, etc.' I think it's very sad when you long for someone to determine the nature of your thoughts...
Is this caused by a lack of personality, fantasy, empathy, intelligence...or is it a side-effect from your bible studies?
**Again, you apparently can't read. Thinking for yourself will ASSURE that you have things like personality, fantasy and intelligence. I don't long for someone to determine my thoughts - THAT is how Hitler came to power. This is odd though, I have never seen someone use my points against themselves in a debate. You lack logic and make wild statements that are either wrong or so far out there that they don't even make sense. Look at what I told SI at the top of the page - a GOOD church will make you question your own beliefs!

Hello G, what took you so long?

You admit to your mistake about how you can get aids by adding 2 possibilities yourself, then stating that me using those 2 would be weak, how convenient...

I'll add organ transplants and skin grafts for you, but that's probably also going to be too weak or something.

The 'rare' cases you speak about...how do you know they are rare? I'm curious about that. Positive thinking? Based on statistics?

How about rape? In some countries hiv-positive soldiers rape women randomly...and yes, most of these women are religious, that helped them huh?

**LOL, spoken like a typical ignorant person on religion! I have to admit that it is SO easy to debate someone without knowledge of a subject - yet, they think their ignorance allows them the right to speak. First of alll I am not Catholic - so that assumption shows how little you know about me. Secondly, I don't know any Christians that believe the world began with the birth of Jesus - so that ia another comment showing your lack of knowledge. Thirdly. you can't make sweeping statements like Catholic teachings are based on solar cults - it isn't true.**

What debate G? You ignore evidence (like most christians or catholics, jehova's, muslims...), telling me i can't make statements about your gang squashing the solar-hood, and just state: 'it isn't true' ,- WOW, that's very convincing...

I can make any statement i want, sweeping or not, they call that debating, you should try it sometimes.

The only real arguement i've read from you, is that everyone who has not had your fabulous bible-studies are ignorant no-brainers, luckily for all of us dimwits you're here to show us the way.

I don't see how calling me pathetic and a 1 year old is adding value to a debate, but knowing that you can only repeat what's been drilled into your head i'm allright with this. 'i forgive you'. That is sooo christian of me! Don't you think, G?

And no witty replies about the sex-marriage-virginity-religion issues? What is up with that? Too hard for you to understand, even after all those studies?

I was really expecting to hear about your views on this apparently really, really difficult subject for religious people.

Good night G, and remember...hands above the bed spread...no naughty thoughts...God sees all

Thomas